Rhea Mann: The Asian Canadian and Asian migration studies program would like to acknowledge that this podcast was recorded on the traditional unceded ancestral homelands of the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-waututh First Nations. We hope that as we continue to facilitate these conversations about Asian diaspora communities, we also engage in the critical dialog about what it means to be uninvited guests and settlers on these lands,
Nathan Ko: We would like to thank the Kwan Lee Excellence Fund for Asian Canadian and Asian migration studies. Rhea me and the entire ACAM team appreciate their generous support for this year’s ACAM podcast.
Rhea Mann: Hello and welcome back to the ACAM dialogs podcast.
Nathan Ko: This week. Rhea and I will be discussing the topic of cultural appropriation. And I know it’s a big topic, but we especially thought the topic was relevant because a number of current events that happened in the past month, certain events which we’ll dive deeper into later on, brought this idea of cultural appropriation to the forefront of social media and to our attention to but before we dive into the events themselves, I thought it would be a really good idea to discuss what cultural appropriation is.
Rhea Mann: I think that’s a great idea. Nathan, cultural appropriation seems to be one of those buzz terms we hear a lot in just like news and a lot of social media as well. And so I think it’s good for us to actually go over what it means before we abuse it.
Nathan Ko: Exactly 100% so, yeah. So going back to the definition of it, according to Google, cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element, or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture, or identity in a manner perceived as inappropriate or unacknowledged. And I know there’s a lot of words that I just said, but something from that definition that really stands out to me is that word unacknowledged, this idea that cultural appropriation happens when there is a clear sense that one party did not, did not acknowledge or consult or work with, even with a certain with the other group to reach a certain goal. I think is a really interesting word that they use in this definition, and something that stood out to me.
Rhea Mann: Yeah, exactly. And so that pretty much directly ties to the first story we’re going to talk about today, and one that really stood out to me in the news, which is the Simu Liu bubble tea controversy in October, Canadian actor Simu Liu was featured in CBC Dragons Den as a guest dragon. And if you don’t know Simu, I bet you probably do, because he was featured in one of the biggest movies of last year, the Barbie movie, as one of the Kens alongside fellow Canadian, Ryan Gosling. He was also in Marvel’s Shen Chi in the legend of the 10 Rings. And of course, his humble beginnings, where I first knew of him and heard of him, which is the Canadian sitcom Kim’s convenience. So on the episode that Simu was featured in boba, a boba tea company pitched their product to the dragons as a healthier alternative to the quote, trendy, sugary drink, unquote that you don’t know the contents of. After this pitch, Simu made a small comment about how he actually does know the contents of the drink, because it’s not that confusing. Once Sebastian Fauci and Jess frenet passed the drinks, he noted that there was no acknowledgement of the history and cultural context of boba listed on the can. Instead, it listed the ingredients and highlighted the alternative health benefits of their version of boba following the events of this episode, there have been lots of memes and parodies of the product and the entire interaction online, but I think the true crux of this pop culture moment is the overt disregard of where boba tea stems from, and just The idea of taking a cultural drink or food and CO opting it for profit. And in the episode, Simu explains that quote, there is an there is an issue of taking something that is very distinctly Asian in its identity and making it better unquote. And on this episode, Manjit minhas actually did make an offer to the boba tea company. Manjit is the co owner of minhas, breweries and distilleries, and she made a comment saying that there can be new versions of things and changes to products. And that’s that’s kind of when CMU highlighted the very issue of cultural appropriation, which is what really did inspire this episode. Ironically, on the show, if you guys haven’t seen the full episode or not the full, like 10 minute clip that’s on Tiktok, all of the other dragons were not agreeing with Simu, like he. Explained that there is an issue here of cultural appropriation, that it’s a little bit fishy, that there’s no Asian people involved in this very Asian product. But none of the Dragons seem to agree. They kind of were like, Whoa. That’s intense start. And so the episode came out, and as I mentioned, parodies and memes were made online the large majority of Canadians, I guess you could say, even though that’s a pretty sweeping statement, agreed with semu and Manjeet did end up withdrawing her offer to the boba tea company, and she released that news with a very sterile, in my opinion, Instagram video apology on her Instagram and the co founders of boba also released a statement of their own on Instagram with a detailed apology and an acknowledgement to see moves quote, very valid points regarding cultural appropriation, unquote. And of course, they included further action for how they want to make their company and their drink all all the more inclusive of its Taiwanese roots. But yeah, that’s kind of the full rundown of the situation. Nathan and all of our listeners, what was your take? Like, I’m sure you heard of this too.
Nathan Ko: So I think, I think my take was, so I heard about this thing, like, maybe, like, a long time after the the episode released, when all the social media buzz was happening, so I kind of was on the back end of it, and on the receiving end where you talk about all the memes and different things were kind of created online. Like, that’s where I found out about this, which is, I think, an interesting aspect too, because you immediately just see people, like, making fun of this one topic. So when I first heard about this, I was like, wow. Like, I can’t believe in 2024, we’re still, like, this is still happening, yeah, and the fact that so, yeah, I looked into it, and I was like, oh, like, maybe it’s like an Asian company. Like, is that really cultural appropriation things like that? But then the fact that the two owners were French Canadian with no real tie to like Taiwan, where boba comes from, right? I was honestly, really shocked by that. And just like seeing the clip itself too is even crazier to me, in my mind, because, like, you say, all the other dragons were so, like, they weren’t even really supportive of sumu when he made those comments. And he’s like, the only, like, Chinese, Asian person in that the whole the all the dragons in that episode. So it’s really interesting to me, how that response was, like their initial response right away, and compared to, yeah, like all the social media firestorm that happened online after, it was quite the contrast. So that was really shocking for me, and the fact that it was still happening, it’s still happening in 2024, things like that when there’s so much discourse, or there should be so much discourse about, like, cultural appropriation and, like, respecting different cultures. Yeah, I was just super shocked.
Rhea Mann: And I think, like, another kind of level that we can look at when we think of this episode. And the issue is that, like,Manjit Minhas herself is Asian Canadian, yeah, like, and she’s the old she was the other Asian Canadian dragon on that panel, or like that episode, because they often switch out and have guest dragons as well. And she’s this season that just began. Is actually her 10th anniversary of being a dragon on the show. And, and, yeah, I just found it honestly disappointing that she was the one that made the offer, like, as also a Punjabi woman. The other Punjabi woman on the show did something that was not, not conscious, not very socially conscious. And, yeah, it’s, again, there’s levels of irony, because I think it was within the same episode there was a company that came and they made bike helmets for children that have goodies, so like, kind of like Bucha, because that’s not an inclusive that’s not typically an inclusive field. There’s not many helmets that are accommodating to that. And she had an entire moment where she was talking about her cultural background and her connection to this issue of, like, inclusive helmets, and for that to be within the same kind of, like breadth of episodes, and for her to not be aware of, like, the social issues that are not including her positionality as a South Asian was really interesting as well to me. Yeah, and again, she did withdraw her offer, so either she herself realized there was an issue, or someone on her team told her there’s an issue with what she did or said on that episode. And there is room for growth, of course, but yeah, I think there’s, it’s just really interesting, like you said that presently 2024 like, there’s still these issues and like, not a common understanding of what cultural appropriation can look like and can be.
Nathan Ko: Yeah. Like, I think it’s also really interesting how Manjit is 10 years on the show. Is kind of like an aspect of her being on the show is to have more cultural diversity, right? Yeah, and the fact that she was the one, like, I mean, that’s your point, right? Like, she, she was the one who made this offer. And what’s crazy to me is the fact that it wasn’t like, Yeah, you should be like, have positionality when you’re representing like, a people group or something, or a culture, right? Like Manjit is. But the fact that Simu even brought it up, like, before all the pitching started, before the like, the brand even talked about their product, like, someone is literally saying it beside you, saying, like, Oh, this is, you got to be careful. Maybe, like, we this is not like, the best thing to invest in, type thing, but the fact that they still continued and like, we’re really into it is really shocking to me. Because, yeah, like, I get it as humans, sometimes you like, like, don’t think about a certain aspect of like, who you are, or like, you just want to, like, make money, let’s say in that show, right? They just want to, they’re focused. To, they’re focused on investing. They don’t really think about, like, I don’t know, like their positionality sometimes, right? But yeah, like, the fact that someone beside you is saying that and they’re still going on it, like, on about it, is quite surprising to me, so I don’t know, yeah, that’s like, a really interesting, like, nuance to it.
Rhea Mann: But yeah, that’s shocking and like, kind of, I know this will connect to what you’re going to be bringing up as well. Nathan, I think the what is profitable like about cultures and identities get becomes a distraction to like, why is that thing being popularized, and who is it being popularized by? And even in the actual clip itself, which I recommend you check out listeners and Nathan as well, because obviously we know that media is skewed and, you know, selective. But in that clip, Sebastian, one of the co founders, says himself that boba tea was becoming this popular thing, and he wanted to kind of join in on this business that was gaining success and becoming this profitable thing, without thinking about the complications and like, what it means to be profiting on a culture not just like This fad thing, like, it’s deeper than just, like, a trendy drink, Like, Money, money is the problem.
Nathan Ko: Yeah and I think it’s like, also really interesting in the context of our podcast, because last episode, we spoke with Chris Shen about like, being under the white gaze, specifically in journalism. But this can be branched, like, to every different parts of life, too, right? How these French Canadians, they want to make profit off like a cultural icon, right? Which is like Boba, and the fact that, yeah, like that, that has been a all of this is like a 2024, situation, like that has been a consistent thing throughout, like, all of Canada’s history, like utilizing different cultures for profit in their own way. So I think it’s really interesting, and it kind of connects to what we were talking about last week with Chris, how this, yeah, sometimes this idea of profit is like a thing that people like Manji adopt, because it’s like what they’re so used to. They’re so used to just kind of making profit, no matter kind of what the scenario is. So I think it’s really interesting connection that we have on our podcast, but also it’s a really stark reminder just to be so aware of our decisions and of like, the environments that we put ourselves in and the way we respond to different things that we see. But like, yeah, you mentioned like, when I heard about this event, I immediately thought of this other scenario of cultural appropriation back in 2021 I’ll give some context. So a Dallas based company in 2021 released like a newly redesigned Mahjong set. So Mahjong is like a traditional Chinese game, like, with different tiles, and there’s, like, different pictures on those tiles that you kind of just play, and yeah, it’s like a really huge thing amongst Chinese people, and it’s a really big part of a lot of people’s lives and culture, right? But this Dallas based company, they completely redesign, like, the pictures on the tiles because, quote, they did not reflect the fun that was had when being played with friends, and did not come close to Martin mirroring the owner’s style and personality. And again, for context, the owner is like a white, middle aged women from Texas and yeah, like the whole company. There’s like no sign of any Asian like discourse or dialog with that, with the creation of this product, and even in the social media post for the launch of this product, the owner. South was, like, wearing a kimono, which is, like a traditional Japanese garment, to launch a redesigned version of a traditional Chinese game. Yeah? Like, I’m not even so at all. Like, it was pretty shocking when it came out. And it was crazy how, in a way, tone deaf the owner was, because, yeah, like, what you’re wearing a like a traditional dress of a totally different culture that you just consider, quote, unquote Asian right to redesign this completely culturally iconic game for, I guess, the American view and audience. So yeah, as you can imagine, this had massive backlash when it was launched, not just in like the local Dallas, Texas area, but like around North America, it was a huge thing. Even Vancouver here, like, I remember it was such a big thing amongst my friends, amongst just like social media, where it quickly got picked up. So I don’t know that was like a really jarring experience, off, especially off the heels of COVID 19 during the pandemic, when there’s a huge spike in Asian hate and violence. So it was just crazy that that, like, I was really shocked when I first heard about that, but yeah, like, I really just thought about this, this event, when I heard about the Simu boba like scenario, yeah, like that. Company also did quickly take down the product and issued a bunch of apologies. But I think going back to that word unacknowledged, which I talked about in this scenario, there’s obviously no talk and acknowledgement and conversation with people from the Chinese community. Because why would they just redesign it to match like the quote American gays, right? You can say white gays, which we just brought about, but yeah, like from their product launches, their social media posts to like the descriptions on the website, it was like a very clear and stark example of cultural appropriation in a world that is, like, I would say, like, driven by profit, which, yeah, like, that’s a different topic. But like, being driven by profit and appropriating culture is something that you see you shouldn’t be seeing, but you just you do see it here and there throughout our world today, so it’s just insane. But I don’t know if you heard that story back in the day, or if you had thoughts on like what I kind of just brought up.
Rhea Mann: But yeah, I did not know about this story until you had mentioned it a little bit before, when we were planning this episode. And then now you fully telling the story. I’m really shocked honestly about the details of this, and it’s but again, it’s also not surprising, because we hear all the time how different countries and cultures get mixed up for one another, just out of pure, like, ignorance, you know, like, it’s things that happen with like, different Indian like subcultures and like things like that, since India is such a huge country, so it’s something that I know of happening a lot. And, yeah, that’s just, it’s really unfortunate. And I think, like you bring up really good points, connecting back to the Cemu story about how I feel like profit is kind of a motivation to culturally appropriate sometimes, because businesses and people get distracted by the potential of commercial success that they honestly don’t really, they probably don’t really care about the implications of, like, yeah, this thing might be kind of wrong or like, whatever, but it’ll make us money, and it’s it’s easy to market if we make it this way. And again, it goes back to the white gays. Only reason these things are easily, easy to market is because everything is thought of like for white people, like white people are the norm market that we associate with anything in like North America, like in the global West. I guess you could say, yeah, that’s just really unfortunate. And I honestly think we, can still see things like this, like things being changed so that it’s more accepting to white people or, like larger Canadian or American societies.
Nathan Ko: Yeah and I think it’s also especially prevalent in our day today, because the world is so global. Here in Vancouver, right? So multicultural, we use that word, and throughout Canada, kind of like, boasts about being multicultural, and the fact that, the fact is that companies are trying to, like, tap into those markets. They’re trying to be way more, I guess, culturally inclusive with their products, with their marketing, things like that. But I think sometimes a lot of companies are really trying to do good, right? But there’s like, a fine line between doing good and also misstepping and overstepping what you should be kind of promoting or, like pushing out into the market, things like that. So I think it’s a really interesting time that we live in, because it’s such a obviously, a huge opportunity to. Market to all these different cultures. But I think with that, it comes back to that word and acknowledge it’s so important to acknowledge the different groups that you’re engaging with, no matter what you’re doing, whether that’s like business or like we’re talking about last week, journalism, or just anything in the world, like different art, anything, right? So I think in this day and age where we are so, yeah, interconnected with different cultures. I think it’s just really important and like, just individual people like ourselves, like there’s just so many different decisions that we need to be aware of too. It’s not just like those big companies, but it’s also about the individual person, whether that’s like, conversations with our friends or family, or that’s you writing like a blog post about, like, a certain thing, even us doing this podcast right now, right? It’s we have to be careful of what we’re which ideas we’re like, kind of perpetuating, and be aware of, like, who we’re acknowledging, but also who we’re acknowledging, yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s a, like, a really interesting aspect of this whole big idea of cultural appropriation.
Rhea Mann: Yeah I think, like to build off of what you were saying. I think, I think there is like, so much power in the individual. Again, kind of calling back to our previous episode with Chris being aware of what you’re consuming, and then also, actually vocally advocating for what you want to see, or if something’s wrong, to say something about it, like for the situation with Simu Liu, as well as the Mahjong game that you brought up. If there wasn’t such a public opinion about both of those situations, neither of them would have changed. And like, like we said the people in power, so, like the fellow dragons in that scenario, were not necessarily agreeing with Simu, but he, like, Good for him. He stood on his ground and expressed his feelings, and the larger Canadian community kind of had his back afterwards. And unfortunately for the boba company, their deal got withdrawn, you know what I mean. And like, if there wasn’t that action, if there wasn’t people being vocal and agreeing, and this is kind of the plus side of social media, that everyone has a platform to there’s, I mean, there’s sides. You could also say that’s negative, that everybody has a platform to say what they want, but let’s stick to the positive. Yeah. So like, we have the power to say, just like we’re doing right now on this podcast, to say what we want and to call out these things. And through that, there’s also room for growth, because I know that Minji minhas, and I think the founders of the boba company as well were kind of receiving like death threats and really extreme, yeah, and that’s, that’s not an appropriate way to that’s not an appropriate way to kind of guide these conversations and issues we have to be able to grow as well, like, we can’t immediately go into cancel culture and villainize these people who are doing these things. Yeah, it’s a fine balance, it’s hard.
Nathan Ko: Yeah, because I also remember, yeah. I think I actually found out, like, right, when Simu, Simu Liu had to like post on his social media, to not like, send hate to the company, because, like, he wasn’t attacking the company in the show, right? He was just saying that this is something to be aware of, like, this idea of cultural appropriation, but yeah, like, the fact that there was so much hate to this, the company, and also menji, too, right after the episode aired was also really sad to see too. But it’s, yeah, I guess two sides of the same coin, right? A lot of people were really strong about how this was cultural appropriation. And yeah, I guess naturally, like, we see a lot in the internet, just an over extension of that when you get, like, protective, when you get in a way aggressive. So I think, yeah, it’s also really important to deal if you hear of anything, if you kind of come across things that you don’t agree with, yeah, it’s so important to also treat it with respect. And, like you said, like, find a way forward, not just, like trying to attack a certain party and then kind of leave it at that. It’s about, like, calling someone out, but also being constructive with that, which is, like, such a key lesson for obviously, like, I guess anybody’s lives, right? Like, it’s not just like the scenario, but, yeah, I don’t know it’s like a really one specific event, like, had so many different topics and implications to it, which is just really interesting to discuss and, like, analyze, I guess, a couple weeks after, but, yeah, I know that’s that was a really cool like discussion on this idea of cultural appropriation.
Rhea Mann: So moving a little bit further away from cultural appropriation, but of course, still staying in the realm of pop culture, because that’s what me and Nathan like to do. We’re gonna do our segment the watch list. And so Nathan, what are you watching right now?
Nathan Ko: Yeah. So recently, the ACAM team actually went to the Vancouver Asian Film Festival, which is happening or which was. Happening earlier this month. Yeah, and in this festival, we went to watch like a short forum, which we actually have connections to two of the filmmakers in that forum. So there was four films in total. We knew two of the filmmakers, and it was really great. So one of them that really stood out to me was directed by fellow acre and ACAM alumni Victoria. So she directed this film that discussed the history of the single woman, her story fighting against like a really powerful organization, which was back in Chinatown in, like, the early 1900s or late 1800s I kind of forget the dates, but it was really interesting, because it really just followed in depth about this person’s life. And it really showed like the struggles that a woman, Asian immigrant, had to face in the male dominated society, right when she was just trying to survive, trying to live her life. So it was about, yeah, kind of the legal disputes between her and her husband over, like, different custody of the kids and her kind of, yeah, like going against this really powerful organization that kind of wanted the husband to win legal battles through and throughout. So it was just a really deep exploration of this one individual, which I think is really rare when it comes to stories about people from that time, because sometimes you can just look at the big picture of this. This is what Chinese history was like back in early North America, early Vancouver days. But it was, yeah, just really cool to me to dive deep into this one person’s story, which, yeah, just was a really well made film as well. So I really enjoyed it.
Rhea Mann: That’s really neat. Was that, was that a documentary?
Nathan Ko: Yeah, it was like a documentary a lot of, like archival footage, interviews with, like, historians, yeah. And it was just really well done, really put together. The story was super nice illustrations were great too. I think Victoria did herself too. Props again to Victoria, and it was just a really cool moment for, like, a canteen too, to see someone from the community really contribute in like this art form, especially in this Vancouver Asian Film Festival.
Rhea Mann: That is sick. I was not able to attend that screening. However, it does sound really cool. And in my a chem 250 course I’m taking right now, which is Asian Canadians in pop culture. We watched Richard Fung documentary reorientations. And so this documentary was actually kind of a sequel to the documentary he released in 1986 called orientations. And Richard Fung himself is a queer artist, educator, writer, and like so many more things, he’s a very well established kind of person in the larger LGBTQ community in Canada. He’s based in Toronto, and his original documentary was following the lives of 14 Asian men and women within the LGBTQ community at the time, and this is something they mentioned in the second documentary. It was just called, kind of gays and lesbians community, but obviously we know now the community has expanded, and so we use the LGBTQ acronym. And so, yeah, this movie reorientations came out 30 years after his initial documentary, and it gives an update to seven of the original the original people, yeah, from 30 years ago. And so basically, four declined, coming back, and three unfortunately passed away of AIDS and and that’s another interesting kind of thing about this movie, is that it came out right on the cusp of the AIDS epidemic. So it was filmed in 1984 and aids really kind of reached its highest points in late he’s early 90s, and so, yeah, like right before, kind of it really devastated the community. And in an article I read for this class as well, Richard funk said there wasn’t anyone he knew in Toronto that had AIDS at that time. But then, obviously, we know, unfortunately, that it that changed drastically in the following years. But yeah, so, so 30 years later, this movie asked these, these same seven people, kind of their their changes on stances within the community and queer issues currently, and where they stayed the same, and kind of just where they are in there, where there are in life, more generally, and I found it super interesting. It was, it was kind of like a time capsule, and it was just cool to see these older people, I guess, like they’re in their 50s, early, early 60s now, watching their younger selves talk about their identity and things that are they’re passionate about, and some of them got emotional, and we’re kind of laughing at the comments. Made it was just really beautiful, like those it was things like small scenes that were just like reactions that I enjoyed. And one scene in particular was with one of the women in the documentary, and she talked about how what she was like 15 or 16, and she kind of realized that she needed a place to kind of assert her identity and, like, explore other issues of feminism and, like, queer rights. And the way that she did that was literally going to the W section in the yellow pages, and just went to, like, woman, and she found a woman owned bookshop, and, like, that’s, that’s kind of where her journey of, like feminism and all these awesome things began, which is, it’s just crazy. And like, it made me think about how like, for me, as someone who like as a teenager, and like, even now, are having thoughts of, like, activism and all these things, like wanting to find resources, it’s easy. Like, all I have to do is go through, yeah, anything you can Google. And there’s just, like, not only is there more sources now there’s more accessibility to these sources, so it’s just kind of crazy to see. And yeah, this movie, I think, is really relevant, because there’s, there’s been a surge of largely right wing conservatism in the US as we know, and in Canada as well. And so I think homophobia is still pretty prevalent, and it’s pretty casual as well. And yeah, this movie was just a good reminder to see, like, how far things have come, but also, like it’s not done, like, there’s always more work that can be done. Yeah, I just really enjoyed it.
Nathan Ko: Yeah, no. I think that’s really cool, especially how the film kind of reflects, like 30 years has passed, right? Like, showing, like, the mirroring of back, young selves versus like, present selves and yeah, like and that serves as, like a basic barometer of like, where society is today, on different topics, which I think must be just so cool, right? I haven’t watched it myself, but I think that progression and seeing that those changes, I guess, yeah, like you said, encourages people, but also shows and marks how much more we have to work as a society, and just, yeah, like the progression, but also different areas to grow in as well. So I think that’s just a really cool statement, I guess in this time, because it’s like, Oh, we’ve come so far, but now, like hopeful, and this is next steps. So yeah, no, I think that is super cool, and thanks for sharing. Really appreciate it. I recommend it for everyone who’s listening, yeah, but yeah, with that, that wraps up our watch list segment, and in large, this whole episode. So thank you again, everyone for listening. We had a really great time discussing different topics, different current events that we had, and explain this bigger idea of cultural appropriation. And obviously this is just one dialog discussion we’re having. And please talk about this with your friends, your family, continue the conversation, because these conversations definitely don’t stop at one time. So yeah, thank you so much for listening. Rhea, if you have anything to say to wrap up,
Rhea Mann: Yeah. So for any other ACAM related news and updates, please go ahead and follow us on Instagram at UBC ACAM. I hope you guys enjoyed the episode. We look forward to seeing you or you guys hearing us next time. Yeah, bye. See you.