ACAM Dialogues Mini-Episode: An Interview with Lindsay Wong (Hosted by Isa S. You, feat. Lindsay Wong)
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ISA: The Asian Canadian and Asian Migration Studies Program would like to acknowledge that this podcast was recorded on the traditional, unceded, ancestral homelands of the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), and Skwxwú7mesh (Squamish), and səl̓ilwətaɁɬ (Tsleil-Waututh) First Nations. We hope that as we continue to facilitate these conversations about Asian diasporic communities, we also engage in critical dialogue about what it means to be uninvited guests and settlers on these lands.
Welcome to episode 3 of the Asian Canadian and Asian Migration studies (ACAM) podcast. My name is Isa You. I’m the Multimedia Production Assistant at ACAM and I’ll be your host for this episode. We hope that this interview series can be a way to continue building connections between ACAM students, staff, faculty and community partners, while also providing our community members with a platform to share similar work they’ve been doing in their community during this time.
My guest for this episode is Lindsay Wong, author of the #1 bestselling debut memoir The Woo-Woo: How I Survived Ice Hockey, Drug-Raids, Demons, and My Crazy Chinese Family. Let’s take a listen.
ISA: Do you mind introducing yourself to our listeners?
LINDSAY: My name is Lindsay Wong, I am the author of The Woo-Woo: How I Survived Ice Hockey, Drug Raids, Demons, and My Crazy Chinese Family. You’ll see that I’m cheating. I can never remember my long subtitle. So I have my book in front of me. And I’m also the author of the YA novel My Summer of Love and Misfortune, as well as a forthcoming short story collection called Tell Me Pleasant Things About Immortality. I also teach Creative Writing at UBC. I’m currently a lecturer in Creative Nonfiction. And I teach in the Op-Res MFA program. Thank you so much for having me today.
ISA: Yeah, thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. So as the Asian Canadian and Asian Migration Studies Program, we are always interested in hearing about people’s own experiences of migration. And you do touch upon this in your memoir, but for the benefit of any listeners who haven’t read the Woo-Woo. Could you tell us a bit more about your and your family’s migration story?
LINDSAY: That’s a great question. So I’m first generation. I was born in Vancouver. And I grew up in a suburb in Coquitlam. And I call it Pot Mountain in the book because it, when I was growing up, was known as a place where people have grow-ops. So you have all these really big McMansions they would be completely empty inside. And you’d have these Asian families growing pot in them, right. And I remember, in my particular cul de sac, there was always like three or four at least going on at the same time. And it was always kind of shady. But it was funny because it was like a beautiful neighbourhood, right with the nice green lawns. And then you have all the seedy drug things going on. My family’s originally from Hong Kong, my mother grew up in the countryside, and my father grew up in the city. My mother came when she was 11. And my father came when he was in first year university, and they met in Vancouver, and I was born in Vancouver.
ISA: And so in what ways do you think that history has influenced your writing?
LINDSAY: It’s funny, because I’m always somewhere in the middle. I’ve always felt that hyphen, right between Asian and Canadian. My family is pretty, I would say pretty Asian, very superstitious. And I write about in the Woo-Woo, they would follow traditions, and they would take it to the extreme. And for me, I think, because I grew up in Canada, and also because I grew up in a largely Asian population. I would say that I’m sort of this weird hybrid of everything.
ISA: I actually grew up in the same area of Coquitlam. And I’m also studying Creative Writing at UBC. So this book really felt like a parallel universe. And I laughed out loud and cried so many times. And so what was or how was the process of writing for you?
LINDSAY: The process of writing the book, I always say like, I didn’t know I wanted to be a writer until I went to UBC. I took creative writing 405 with Andrea Schroeder and that was the year my aunt took the city of Vancouver hostage, trying to jump off a bridge. And it happened that all my creative writing professors were stuck in traffic that day and they didn’t know what was happening. Like why am I stuck on a bridge for eight hours? And I wrote about it for workshop. And I don’t know if this is your experience, too. In workshop sometimes when you write about things people are like “yeah, I was there or this happened to me too” right or “this is really weird.” And so that became the basis for the Woo-Woo. Of course, I didn’t know it then, I just thought okay, this is just a standalone piece. And so for me, it really felt like I was writing a book about my aunt. And then I had gotten into the MFA program at Columbia. And it turned out that no one is really writing about what we think we’re writing about. And so I was actually writing a memoir. And so for me, that standalone piece that I started working on at UBC became chapter 13 of my book. And so that was really funny how it started. The process of memoir writing. How long do we have? It’s very… I would say, as I said in the beginning of my book, writing makes me want to gouge out my eyeballs. And I think the process of memoir is times 1000. Because not only do you have to relive memories that you don’t want to talk about, or things that are uncomfortable, you have to be able to make it palatable for your reader, right? No one wants to read a sob story, no one wants to read a pity party. Right? And I always say, to my students, you know, why are you writing about this? And so I think the process of writing memoir, it’s really to make sense of oneself and one’s identity and, and sort of, you know, why are we the way we are right, as people, as a family? And I think, you know, that’s with my family, because we have so many different experiences. They grew up largely in Asia, my grandparents, they don’t even read. They’re illiterate. And so there’s that different sense of class and education.
ISA: And so, in your opinion, is memoir truth itself? Or is there some sort of like relationship between the two things? What do you think?
LINDSAY: That’s a great question. I think the more it’s really the emotional truth, right? I always say, you know, it’s impossible to go around recording events that happened so long ago, word by word. I don’t know, if you don’t remember what the exact conversation is, right. And so you know, when we’re writing a memoir, we’re kind of shaping what we think happened, right? And memory is fallible. As I say, in the beginning of my book, I have taken the gist of things. And I’ve crafted a narrative of what it felt for me growing up. Of course there are comedic moments. And in comedy, there’s always, y’know hyperbole, right? There’s always a sense of, especially I think, I don’t know if it’s similar for you, Asian parents tend to exaggerate. They always say, you know, if you don’t study, you’re going to end up working, you know, like McDonald’s or something. Right. And so, a lot of that is like the type of family who’s very extreme in how they speak and how they operate. But in the end, I think, as I’m sure you know, you recognize there’s this prickly love, right, between family members that sometimes non-Asian readers may not pick up on, right, like, Why does everyone hate each other? And I’m like, no, they don’t hate each other. That’s how they talk to each other. Right. And, and so many times in, you know, in Asian families, criticism is a way of love.
ISA: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting, I’ve also written messy Asian families. And getting feedback that’s like, Oh, that’s so messed up. But no it’s actually quite a complex dynamic.
LINDSAY: It stems so much from you know, you have dysphoria, you have culture, you have all these elements, you know, intergenerational trauma. And that stress of being an immigrant in a new world. And so you’re getting all these like culture clashes. And I think a lot of non-Asian readers have trouble picking up on that nuance, right? And I have to explain it to people. There’s always a sense that, you know, like, are you stereotyping Asian Canadians in your book? And I’m like, no, I’m not stereotyping Asian Canadians. And I think there is something about… I think it says something largely about our culture in Canada, and how we read immigrant literature and how we want the portrayal of Asian Canadians.
ISA: Yeah, and also understanding that, you know, because there are so few voices, I mean, there are more and more voices nowadays, but there are so few voices talking about these specific topics. Your voice kind of becomes ‘the voice’ on the topic and having to, I guess, how is that experience trying to navigate around the potential, not like backlashes, but potential responses that you might receive.
LINDSAY: It’s really hard I think, because you know, white writers, they don’t get being they’re not told that you know, ‘you represent all white people.’ I don’t know if you’ve read the memoir Running with Scissors by Augusten Burroughs, and it’s about also a crazy white family. But no one thinks that all white people are like this, right? But because I wrote about mental health and I wrote about my specific family and they think that this represents all Asian kids and we’re not… We’re human beings, we’re people, we’re three dimensional. And so that for me, it becomes tiring for me to be like… to always have to say this and I know like some books by POC have a note in the beginning saying like, ‘this does not represent everyone.’ And I hate that. I just think it’s so ridiculous and redundant to be like, “Look, we’re explaining, you know, our culture and race, but white people don’t have to do that.” And so I think yeah, so sorry, what was the question? Oh, yeah. I’m going on this weird rant. But becoming, you know, that one voice? And it even shows like when during Asian Canadian Month, that’s my business month because that’s when all the media outlets are like, ‘what do you think of Asian comedians? What do you think of Asian Canadian literature?’ And I’m like, ask some other Asian Canadians for their story and you’ll see how diverse our voices are. We’re not just one, you know, homogenised voice and I’m not going to represent everyone. Right? And I think it’s ridiculous that people don’t see that. You know, I’ve had Hollywood producers tell me like, we better sell your pitch or your story first. Because, you know, people are gonna say, “We already have our Asian.” Right? And it’s like, it’s 2022. Like, come on.
ISA: Yeah. And going back to your memoir, I’m curious about what was the process…or if any, of research? What does that look like, for writing a memoir?
LINDSAY: Yeah. So I think a lot of people think that you know, memoir, you just sit down and you spill your guts. And that’s not true. It means a lot of talking to family members, right? So if you ever take a creative nonfiction course, or journalism course, interviewing skills are really important. So sitting down with people and saying, like, how did you experience this event, and you’re gonna find that everyone has a different version of the story. Some people will lie about things because they don’t want to look bad. Other people are a little bit more honest. And so as a writer, your job is to kind of piece together all these events, and find out what you think happened, right? Of course, there’s different ways that you can let the reader know, like so and so said… this other person said this, I think, you know, so and so is lying, because they’re a narcissist, right? You can, you can definitely do that with memoir and that becomes part of the story, right? Not knowing and multiple points of view.
ISA: And so how did you make the decision to write this book as a piece of nonfiction instead of, say, adapting it to a fiction piece?
LINDSAY: I think if this was fiction, I think no one would want it, it’d be a horrible novel, because there’s too many similarities, right? You can’t be like, I’m sure you’ve talked about it in your fiction classes where you can’t have all these, you know, similarities or coincidences. Like, if you know, so, and so has mental illness. Why would this other person have mental illness and that perso? They would be like, there’s no plot in this book, you know, the character development is not working. No one would really believe that so and so took, you know, a bridge hostage on Canada Day, right. So there’s like these moments that are better suited for nonfiction? I think, in nonfiction, you know, you were sort of taking these events and you’re making them into, you know, a story arc for people to follow in memoir, whereas I think in fiction, you have to kind of, you know, craft something that reads like nonfiction, right. I think I heard something that’s like the best nonfiction reads like a novel, right. And so it’s, it’s a very, very different process, I think, when you’re writing nonfiction and fiction.
ISA: The way you’re describing it, there’s almost like a specific suspension of disbelief that’s associated with nonfiction, interestingly. Yeah. So how did you figure out how to use the humor and interweave it with the more difficult topics?
LINDSAY: Yeah. You know what the funny thing is, I didn’t think, I didn’t know I was funny until I was writing. And I remember in workshop, someone’s like, this is really funny. And I was like, Okay, I guess it is funny and I think if you step back from, you know, culture or… There’s so much absurdity, right, in tradition. You know, in Chinese families after funerals, my mom was always like you need to walk backwards underneath an umbrella, because the ghosts are chasing you, right? And so you think of that image as absurd comedy, right? And I think playing up on that. I also think that when you’re writing about really difficult things, if you can make yourself laugh, the reader can get through it with you, right? Otherwise, you know, your reader is going to be like, this is too much. It’s too dark. It’s too upsetting. I can’t continue. Of course, you know, humor is subjective, right? You have people telling you, this is not funny, you know, how can you make fun of people who are mentally ill and you’re like, Well, I’m not making fun of people who are mentally ill. I’m describing the situation as an absurd comedy. And so, I think in memoir, if you can find that absurdity or that humor, it just makes it more bearable for the reader
ISA: And how and where does loneliness come into play?
LINDSAY: I think the family definitely felt lonely coming to Canada, even though they had a lot of… I mean my mother has eight siblings, right? But there’s that sense of you don’t speak the language, who do you talk to for help? You know, you’re apparently plagued by ghosts and demons. So like, what do you do? Right? And I think that there’s a deep sense that each family member is really struggling, but they’re yelling, right, but no one is listening. And I think my character in the book, you know, she is not really part of a group in high school or whatever. And so I think she internalises it. And then that’s how she moves through the world. But I also think that writers, we’re very largely introspective, right? I think a lot of us just feel more comfortable, like sitting in the background eating cake, right and watching people we’re not… we’re not the life of the party. Most of us aren’t, we just want to y’know, quietly, write, or observe. And I think that’s sort of training for a writer, for all of us who fall in love with creative writing.
ISA: Were there times where you felt too vulnerable or a sense of discomfort with sharing so much with the world?
LINDSAY: I always tell people that I did not think anyone would read my book. I think that’s partly why I didn’t think of it as strangers reading my work. I really thought five people would read it because you hear stories of debut writers being like, ‘okay, had a book launch, no one showed up. And you know, my agent, my publisher read it, and a handful of friends.’ And so I thought that would happen to me. I did not know that the book would be nominated for awards, I did not know, people would actually want to buy it. And I think if someone had said to me, ‘people are gonna read your book,’ I would have laughed. And I think that would have probably created a block when you think about people reading it, right? But because I’d gone in thinking, I’m going to write a book for myself, I’m going to write my experience, write this and maybe have something to put on my bookshelf one day. That’s sort of like my mindset. So I think the answer is, if I had known, maybe the book would be less personal. Who knows, right? Maybe the book would have been less angry. It’s really hard to say right? When you’re like, okay, I have an audience for this. I don’t know if you have that. When you’re in workshop, where you’re thinking about, you know, who’s gonna read it? Or you just write for yourself. It’s very different.
ISA: Did you say “my character”? Is that the phrase you used?
LINDSAY: Yeah I said “my character” the reason being in my creative nonfiction class, I always tell students, we always talk about the narrator or the character, right. There’s always that distancing technique when you talk about work.. So this is a character based on you. In my case, I took some of my characteristics, and I exaggerated them into a composite of like a 16 year old, you know, or a teenager, right? I mean, she’s me, but also not me, right? So I’m always thinking about, you know, Lindsay, the character in the Woo-Woo.
ISA: So the version of yourself in the Woo-Woo is, in some ways, a constructed character that represents you.
LINDSAY: Yeah, yeah. So in memoir the character is different from, you know, the author who is you right now. Because there’s some time, there’s distance but also because what works in real life doesn’t work as well on the page. So you have to be able to create that character or narrator to get through the book,
ISA: I also found the language and the syntax and like the mimicry of accent in your book really interesting, especially your accent as you progress and, you know, like your English changes. So I’m curious, how did you make that decision to incorporate that and write that?
LINDSAY: I just wanted to be, I think authentic to the character, right? She doesn’t… she grows up not really speaking English. I mean, I learned Chinese first, and then I learned English from school. And then I forgot Chinese because at school, you weren’t allowed to speak it. And so for my character, it was like how she moved through the world. She heard her parents’ voices. So she’s hearing Chinese, right? She’s translating it. And then as she, you know, grows up, she slowly leaves her house, her world. And then she moves through school. And that’s where she starts to pick up more English. And I think, you know, I want it to be authentic to that narrative growth.
ISA: As I was reading, I felt like the Woo-Woo was also profoundly shaped by locations like you’ve got Coquitlam, you’ve got Hongcouver, you’ve got New York. And the stories feel really unique to or specific to these locations. What is your perspective on this?
LINDSAY: It’s funny, because I didn’t set out to make the place a location. But I think when you’re writing creative nonfiction, the place really shapes who we are as people and what we think about right. You said you grew up on the same mountain as I did? Yeah. It’s like, it’s this wild mountain and it’s kind of funny, because you have, you know, the… there’s a Canadian wilderness, right? With the beautiful suburb, right? It’s very Canadian, but at the same time, you have the influx of Asian immigrants. And so that became like, a really rich world, right. And then when I moved to New York, I was diagnosed with MAV. And so the world became different for me because it was spinning all the time. And New York is such a busy bustling place, and it becomes a character in your work, right, with a lot of attitude. And I think, you know, if you think of all the places that you’ve lived, think of setting, right? It’s such a great way to kind of draw out the character and how she… and how it becomes part of the story for each individual chapter.
ISA: Mm hmm. And I think in the book, you mentioned this tremulous circular route of escape. Yet, I believe you’re currently based in Vancouver. And so was there ever a process of making peace with the city?
LINDSAY: I mean, I have lots of complicated feelings about Vancouver. I’m based in Burnaby now, but I mean I’m still in Vancouver. I think it’s something about the city that just pulls us back. Whether it’s home for us. I always say like I’m cursed, I can’t leave Vancouver. There’s something about it. I like the city. I mean, I like the people. I like the food, but at the same time, right. It’s a complicated thing about, you know, kinship and homecoming. I recently went to Hong Kong in March and it was my first time in Asia. And it was just like, suddenly, you know, you feel like at home, even though it’s like your first time. Because everyone looks and sounds exactly like you, right. And I think that’s something really special about that.
ISA: How was the book received by people you know, or even people who were in the book?
LINDSAY: So my family doesn’t read so that’s, you know, kind of a good thing. They’re not the type of people who are like, I’m gonna sit down and read everything. My brother told me, they got it out from the library, I don’t know if they actually read it or not, they never said anything. My friends, a lot of them said that they had no idea about my life, because I’m not one of those people. Even though I did a tell all memoir. I’m not gonna… I’m not one of those people who, you know, sit down, and is like, this happened to me and that happened to me. I’m very reserved, very shy in real life. I don’t know, I think as writers we’re more comfortable, writing our feelings than talking about our feelings? At least, you know, in my case, and so for me, I think there was a lot of shock on their parts. But also, I don’t know, some of my friends might have just bought my book and never read it. Right, you have friends who are like, I’m gonna support you. But they just put it away or give it away.
ISA: So how did you decide where to end the Woo-Woo?
LINDSAY: That’s a great question. Because I also had the same question. I remember talking to my thesis advisor at Columbia, and I said, How do I end this book? Because I’m still alive, I still want to live many, many years, right? I’m not going to die. And I don’t know what happens. And he said to me, you know what, everyone right now is ending their thesis with grad school. So why don’t you end in grad school too. I was like, Okay, I’ll do that. And so I thought, you know, the end of the airport would work, because there’s the idea of hope and moving and the conveyor belt, right. So I chose that image, because it’s very convenient. But in reality, I didn’t know where to end the book, because I think memoir, we, there’s not a really natural ending, right? It’s not like like fiction, where you can say, and they all lived happily ever after, you kind of have to pick a spot where it ends with hope. I remember reading an article saying that the memoir is the American fairy tale, right? And so, there has to be some kind of peace, right? And you can see, there’s an epilogue at the very end, where it kind of talks about what happens to each character. And you know, with memoir people are going to be like, there’s no plot or, you know. Or I didn’t like the ending, because there’s no ending and you can’t really respond to that, because you have to be able to follow real life.
ISA: And I was digging through your old interviews, and you once said that nonfiction feels like self work. So how does it feel to look back four years after the publishing of the Woo-Woo?
LINDSAY: I’m grateful. Like, I’m grateful the book did well. I am… I’m tired. I think I did not realise that launching a book was so much work, both emotionally, both physically. And really just…I think, for me, I’m a little embarrassed, I think. To have talked so much about myself. Because I think I’m naturally, I think I mentioned I’m a shy person, right? A lot of people don’t know that about me. They think I’m a really very, very outgoing, extroverted person, because the character in the book seems to be a loud person, right? Who’s animated and lively. But in real life, that’s not me at all right? And so, you know, looking back, I’m like, I talked to so many people, I shared my life story, you know, what was I thinking? And so I think that’s, that’s what I would say.
ISA: I’m curious, what are your thoughts on creative writing programs? And what do you think that they can bring to the table?
LINDSAY: I think creative writing programs can be really great ways to have to find community. I think that’s really important as a writer, so much of our work we do in solitary, right. We are quietly working away on our books for years and years. We often don’t show people I think having community, whether editorial support or emotional support, is really important, right. Only other writers understand what it means to get rejection or what it means if your book, you know, gets a bad review. And I think that’s really important. Another thing I think creative writing programs do is that they really teach you how to work on a deadline. And deadlines are really important in real life. I don’t know if you’ve ever struggled with workshop submissions, I’ve done it myself, I’ve left it to last minute. And then stressed about it, or sometimes, you know, there’s like there’s that overwhelming… that feeling like, oh, I can’t get it all done. But it’s really great training as a writer. So that’s what I would say. Do I think creative writing programs teach people how to write? I don’t know, I don’t know, if one can be taught writing. But I would say it allows you to develop as a writer. It teaches you how to craft your voice. And you find your obsessions and your interests. Right. So I think it’s definitely a place if you want to join a community of writers.
ISA: Last question, or last few questions. It’s all on the same topic. Um, how do you feel about the horror genre,
LINDSAY: The horror genre, um, I personally love it. I am writing a collection of immigrant horror stories right now. So I’m combining sort of Absurdism, I’m combining reality. I have a zombie grandmother who just comes back from the dead to protect her grandchildren from bullying, you know, and that’s a horror story itself. Like, what if you have relatives that never die? That’s frightening, right? Especially if you don’t like them. And then I have, you know, different things happening to certain people, like a courtesan in 17th century China who talks about not being able to die, and it’s kind of goofy. So, you know, I think there’s something about horror and letting us combine our cultural values, but also being like a metaphor for like, BIPOC people, right? Because you never really see BIPOC horror.
ISA: And you mentioned that you were working on a collection of immigrant ghost stories. And then also the Woo-Woo in a lot of ways feels like partially a ghost story, or a story about a haunting, or multiple hauntings. And so what is it about ghost stories or haunting stories that lends itself to telling immigrant stories?
LINDSAY: I think there’s this idea because, you know, we’re always haunted by the past. There’s Asian immigrant families with their secrets, right? We’re fleeing… a lot of us are fleeing from memories, are fleeing from the homeland. And so naturally, it becomes a recipe for myth telling, right? Whether a family story, or, you know, there’s a ghost story. And I think, you know, being raised by my mother and my grandmother, who felt that ghosts surrounded us, right, and they were to blame for everything. And so I’ve always been fascinated by them. Because, I mean, I’ve never seen a ghost so but I’m not gonna say they don’t exist, because just because I haven’t seen them. And so for me, it’s always been such a great metaphor to explore the monstrous and the feminine. And to play on these tropes, right?
ISA: Yeah, for sure. Like, I really wanted to interview you actually last year for Halloween, but we couldn’t schedule it. But I’m very happy I got to interview you today. And so thank you so much for, you know, agreeing to be interviewed. We really appreciate it.
LINDSAY: Well, thank you so much for having me on this podcast and thank you for your great questions.
ISA: You just heard an interview with Lindsay Wong, author of the #1 bestselling debut memoir The Woo-Woo: How I Survived Ice Hockey, Drug-Raids, Demons, and My Crazy Chinese Family, and lecturer in Creative writing program at UBC. This episode was recorded in advance of the panel, Stories that Haunt Us, with Asian Canadian writers Lindsay Wong (UBC) and Jamie Liew (University of Ottawa) on Tuesday April 5th. Details will be in the show notes. Stay tuned for the next episode with Jamie which is coming out on March 29th.
Thank you for listening to this episode. If you have an idea for an episode of the ACAM podcast, we’d love to hear from you. Send us your ideas by emailing us at acam.program@ubc.ca. To be notified when the next podcast episode is released and to stay up to date on all things ACAM, please follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @UBCACAM and like us on Facebook at Asian Canadian and Asian Migration Studies UBC.
Event:
Stories that Haunt Us: A Conversation with Jamie Liew and Lindsay Wong
Learn more about the guests and their work:
Lindsay Wong