Rhea Mann: The Asian Canadian and Asian migration studies program would like to acknowledge that this podcast was recorded on the traditional unceded ancestral homelands of the Musqueam Squamish and Tsleil-waututh First Nations. We hope that as we continue to facilitate these conversations about Asian diaspora communities, we also engage in the critical dialog about what it means to be uninvited guests and settlers on these lands.
Nathan Ko: We would like to thank the Kwan Lee Excellence Fund for Asian Canadian and Asian migration studies. Rhea, me, and the entire ACAM team appreciate their generous support for this year’s ACAM podcast.
Rhea Mann: Hello and welcome back to the ACAM podcast!
Nathan Ko: This week, Rhea and I had the opportunity to talk with Vancouver journalist Chris Cheung. Chris is a UBC alumni, and got his BA in English with a minor in sociology, and later returned to UBC to complete his master’s in journalism
Rhea Mann: Now, 10 years into his career as a journalist, Chris is an award winning writer and staff member at the Tyee, a reader funded online magazine based in BC that has just celebrated its 20th anniversary. Much of his work at the publication is around urban change, diasporas and food.
Nathan Ko: Chris’ newest project is his book under the white gaze, solving the problem of race and representation in Canadian journalism, which is a compilation of reflections and observations from being in the business for 10 years. In this book, Chris dissects the ways that media has been reporting on racialized groups in Canada. And this conversation was especially interesting to me because as host of this ACAM podcast where we discuss different Asian Canadian topics in our community, he really taught me, personally to be way more critical about approaching a certain topic, especially when talking about different races, different people groups. And yeah, it’s like, super applicable the stuff that he talks about in his book and in this podcast. And I really took away a lot of things from this conversation. Yeah,
Rhea Mann: I think we both had a really great time talking with Chris and to kind of piggyback off of what you said, Nathan, I think also, again, as creators, but also consumers of media. As much as we create media, we also end up consuming that much. So talking to Chris really helped develop a kind of lens for critiquing media. And if we don’t see what we want to see, or if we are having any issues with the kind of representation we see, we also have the right to demand more and also create better representation for ourselves, which is what we are doing here on this podcast. And so without further ado, here is our interview with Chris. We hope that you all learn something new and enjoy our conversation.
Nathan Ko: Chris, thank you for coming onto the ACAM podcast, we really appreciate you being here, and are super excited for our conversation. I guess, to start off here on the ACA podcast, we like to ask our guests about their migration stories. So we want to ask you what your migration story is, and specifically how your story relates or influences your work as a journalist.
Chris Cheung: Yeah, this is a great question. I’m sure all of your guests probably have some reason of their family background, of why they want to do this kind of work. So for me, all of my grandparents have roots in southern China, and so it’s, yeah, it’s kind of a pretty classic cohort of people. So with the Japanese invasion, they ended up in Hong Kong, and that’s where my parents were born. And so in the mid 70s, both my mom and dad’s respective families, they came over here to Vancouver. So my parents were in their teens at the time. And so for me, I was born in Vancouver in the early 90s. And yeah, it’s an interesting time, because I think between the time that they moved over here. And the time that I was born, that’s when a lot of what we know as, like, Chinese Vancouver today started to develop. So, you know, like, like, even Chinatown got some new malls in that time. There’s, you know, Victoria drive, like, a second Chinatown started to pop up over there. That’s where my barber was. And Richmond, of course, Richmond had lots of malls, and we’d often go to Yao Han there to do our grocery shopping. And media too, like Fairchild radio and that whole TV Empire started to launch for Cantonese language media. And we also went to a Chinese Christian Church in Vancouver. So yeah, it was an interesting time where I got to grow up with a lot of access to this culture. And sometimes when I interview people from older generations who have grown up in Vancouver, they didn’t have that kind of access. So I feel quite lucky in that way, and in terms of like my own experience, of like different people. In Vancouver for my dad’s work, like, my dad’s a pharmacist, and he had a lot of older clients who were part of older waves of migration. So there are a lot of Italian and Portuguese families. And, you know, being a pharmacist, it was one of those jobs where people like to give him stuff for helping him. So growing up, we got a lot of treats like Portuguese buns or like Italian tiramisu at Christmas time. And then the funny thing is, my mom’s work was also kind of like that too. So my mom was a piano teacher, and her customers, like was on the flip side of my dad. So teaching piano, it’s, it’s a lot of kids and a lot of families who are very aspirational in what they want for their children’s future. And so those are the kinds of people who took piano lessons. And there were a lot of newcomer families, as opposed to my dad’s clients, which had been here for many, many years. And so, you know, with the Taiwanese families, we got stuff like pineapple cakes. We got, like, these taro cakes and a lot of Chinese snacks as well. So yeah, growing up, I always had this sense of people coming and going and settling in the city. And when I became a journalist, I think kind of like I knew I wanted the kind of Vancouver that I experienced and saw in my work. And I think it was, yeah, kind of like an unconscious thing in the background and over time, realizing that, hey, maybe there’s something about who happens to be in this industry and who news is catered towards, that these stories aren’t told as often.
Nathan Ko: Yeah, no, I really like that. Like, was it always a vanquiver in your mind, where you want to create change in journalism? Or was it like, anywhere you were thinking of going anywhere? Or was it, I always want to stay in my career, be a writer here, make change through that?
Chris Cheung: Yeah, I definitely think so. Like I had, there’s different types of journals, right? Like, when I, when I got into the program, I thought everybody, like I had to be a certain kind of investigative reporter who did really hardcore things, but I soon came to realize that, like, hey, there’s room for this kind of storytelling too. Yeah. And I think for me, because my work is so grounded in the city, if you were to draw me in, like Toronto, for example, I think I’d have a really hard time. But that’s that’s why I like to do this job like I it’s a good excuse for me to be able to investigate stuff in my hometown that I was always curious about.
Rhea Mann: That is awesome. My grandparents came to Canada in the 70s, so I kind of get that. It’s the same kind of idea where there wasn’t as many almost much of a strong Punjabi community in like certain areas in Vancouver, as there is today, obviously. So I can definitely relate to aspects of that, and to build off of kind of what you were saying about wanting to show and write about the Vancouver that you were seeing and living in every day, we kind of wanted to ask you what it was, or what was the reason why this book interrogating under the white gaze, or, sorry, interrogating the white gaze, your book titled under the white gaze. Why was it important for this book to come out now? Was there any kind of political or economic reasons or influences that really inspired you to stay like this was the time to talk about this. And, yeah, and so why now? And why specifically a book about the white gaze in media?
Chris Cheung: Yeah. Well, this, this year marks my 10 years in the industry, so it was a good excuse for me to do some reflection. But also, I think the fact that we’re able to have this podcast like this wasn’t really something that existed 10 years ago, like ACAM was new 10 years ago as well. And I think it was the same with conversations in the journalism industry too, that there is this renewed interest in talking about different types of diversity and who needs to be in the newsroom too. But while I think that there is this new interest, there are wrong ways to approach it, like some like, I’m sure everybody has heard of this term, like diversity hire, and that’s something I really worry about when I see there is a newsroom that is putting out a posting out there that says that, like, hey, like, we do care about hiring somebody from an underrepresented group. That’s something we value. But then if we do hire somebody, what’s next? And that’s, that’s what I’m always really scared of, like, what if there was somebody who’s hired, but then, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re white. Editor might be the one who is in power and the one who’s doing the assigning of the stories, and so I have seen some friends who are used for their connections in a particular community or used for their language skills to get stories that their editor wanted to do. So they were hired, you know, supposedly, because the newsroom wanted to fill a gap, but then they weren’t trusted. To run with stories that they thought were important and stories that they knew because of their lived experience would be worth covering. And also, yeah, just being forced to do only these kinds of diversity stories as well, that kind of like pigeon holing. And I think if a you know, if a journalist who is a person of color is hired if they don’t want to cover from something from their own company, I think that’s totally fine as well, and there shouldn’t be that pressure. And it’s weird too, when you have somebody who is relied upon for that. Because what happens to the rest of the newsroom, like, does that mean that all the other reporters don’t have to think about these intersections at all, and they should just rely on this racialized report to do that. So I think it’s always important that, you know, of course, these hires are a good thing, but is the rest of the newsroom considering diversity too? And is that person who’s hired like, are they being trusted for whatever knowledge they have? So that’s the newsroom side of it. And I think on the news side of things, there’s, I like, I still will see stories where race is talked about in this way that it’s, it’s like, somebody’s destiny. It’s very essentialist. So, you know, if there’s this, like, I see these stories where somebody would talk about their, like, Asian parents, for example, and how their Asian parents are really, really strict. And the, you know, journalists, when there are these kinds of, like, sweeping statements, they don’t really question why that is. So if they’re saying that Asian parents are strict, like, are they diving into the fact that, like, oh, maybe this is a thing that you know, immigrant parents tend to be quite strict. Or maybe because of the class they’re from, they’re quite strict, or they’re from a more conservative religious background, they’re quite strict. But instead, like, they’re treating Asian this as a reason why somebody is strict, and that, yeah, that tends to happen a lot, even now. And like, we think about, like, journalists might say it’s like, oh, well, I’m not talking about race here, like, I’m talking about something from a particular culture. And so I still think it’s yeah, it’s quite odd that like race or culture is what is being assigned as like reasons for somebody’s personality or what kind of values they have, yeah. And, you know, I saw this a lot during COVID as well. Like, there was an Alberta Health Officer I talk a bit about this in my book, and she said that one of the reasons why there was so much transmission within Filipino newcomers who worked in Alberta, was because they couldn’t stop working, because it was part of, like a Filipino work ethic and so so again, right? Like they’re saying that, Oh, these people have something because of their culture that dictates how they act, but not really looking at like, Okay, well, maybe it’s because these are migrant workers, and they have a lot of dependence, and so they know they have to work in that way, and it’s very difficult for them to speak up in a workplace setting. So yeah, I think even in stories where, like, it seems like they’re trying to unpack race, like, Okay, it’s good that they’re bringing that into the conversation, but if they’re still painting people with this broad brush that is very essentialist, it can be, it can be very misleading for readers. And so, yeah, I really wanted this book to be a way for people to go beyond that a bit and change how they frame pieces
Rhea Mann: Just to build off of that a little bit in the part in your book where you talk about Filipino healthcare workers, specifically, you you mentioned this phrase kind of a couple times, which is that media and just kind of people and organizations tend to blame people and not policy, which is, which is something that is throughout your entire book. And I just wanted to say that I really, I really enjoyed that outlook. And I think, yeah, I think that really emphasizes the way that so much of the media we consume is under the white gaze and acts to to blame people and not the policy and not questioning kind of everything other than I like, all the cases and all the situations and systems that make certain people or situations the way they are
Chris Cheung: yeah. And it’s yeah, that’s, I’m glad you brought that up. And it’s like, you know, I haven’t been doing this for that long, like, 10 years, but it’s, it is scary to see that effect happen from group to group, like, for example. Now we see a lot of scapegoat, scapegoating towards international students, particularly from from India, and blaming them for driving up housing prices. And so it seems like this is a story that never ends. There’s always some new group that’s being demonized. And it’s like, okay, well, why don’t you blame the policy? Like, why are we blaming people? Like, in this case,
Rhea Mann: exactly, yeah, yeah. I really, I really enjoyed that part.
Nathan Ko: I think when you were saying, like, it’s super interesting how sometimes these diverse stories are really important, but sometimes it’s given by, let’s say, like, white editors or companies that, like, kind of just force it onto their quote, unquote, like ethnic writers or journalists. Is this something that you’ve seen more recently in terms of, like people are trying to highlight more diversity stories, more stories about culture, or is this something that has been persisting, but you’re just now addressing it?
Chris Cheung: Yeah, I think, I think that’s always been kind of the case where some, some kind of white editor wants to find dirt on a particular community, and then they hire somebody with access to that community to go out and find it. Yeah, whether it’s, you know, like dirty money, supposedly coming from a particular country, illicit, it’s usually a lot of, like business stories, like with, like real estate, for example, like anyone who can unearth those shady dealings if you, if you check out some like, big investigations on those kinds of themes, you’ll usually see that it is a white journalist who writes it, but at the very bottom, it will be like with files from so and so, or like reporting done by so and so, and that person is usually a person of color, so you know that you can see that dynamic very clearly in the credits of that story.
Nathan Ko: Yeah, that’s actually really interesting, because you talk about, like, in your book, you talk about how, like, there’s these stereotypes that are kind of forced upon, like, you’re just saying, forced upon them. These stories are kind of given to ethnic writers or journalists. So I guess in your own understanding, how much, how do you influence do you think that the journalists have versus the individuals consuming the media like, when it comes to subverting these stereotypes and being able to like have more critical eye, is that like the journalist job, or how much do you think is on the consumer blog?
Chris Cheung: Yeah, yeah. That’s a really good question, especially now with people’s declining trust in traditional news media, I think it’s always a conversation with regards to, like, you know, where do stereotypes come from? Like, I feel like it’s, there’s like, a conversation happening between news and news audiences, yeah, like, during COVID, for example, the the province, like the daily newspaper here in Vancouver, they they put China virus, like on the cover of their of their paper, and that’s not something that, like the the editors came up with, but that was something that was already out there. So yeah, I think that was their way of responding to that conversation. And I see people using news a lot as as a kind of ammo to win arguments that they might have. So if you know, like earlier, we talked about when, when a group is demonized for some kind of illicit activity. So a couple of years ago, when there was a lot of attention to East Asian people in the real estate market, like, whether it’s like foreign money or people who are working in that industry, there was a lot of blame towards foreigner for this, foreigners for this. And so whenever there was any kind of story about, like, a realtor who was East Asian who did something bad. You would see, like, in the comments, people going like, Aha. This is like, this is evidence of what we’ve been saying the whole time. And like, even now. Like, from, from when Justin Trudeau started welcoming refugees, like, from Syria to different ways, like, later on, like anytime there was a story about a refugee doing something bad, like committing a murder, like, for example, you would see that again, like in the comments people saying, like, oh, again, this is evidence that we are bringing refugee criminals into our country. And so I think these people, like the readers of these stories, like, are holding these stereotypes already, but when they see news stories, it’s yeah, they use it as a kind of confirmation of what they believe. And so it’s a Yeah. It’s, you know, it raises this question of, like, you know, as journalists, you know, what if these stories are true? Like, what if we are putting stuff like this out there? But I still think we can be a bit more careful about how we’re framing the stories, and also what other stories you’re telling about a particular group. Like, if the only time a newsroom is reporting on a group is negative, then it’s it’s not really surprising that that’s what audiences will believe. Yeah, but I think media still has the power to create a lot of empathy as well. Like, you can report on groups and introduce them to an audience by showing, like, you know, what are the decisions they’re making in their lives? What choices are they making to make ends meet, whether it’s a, you know, people in 10 cities get demonized, demonized a lot, but that’s, I feel like, that’s something that the power of journalism can do to, like, explain, like, how did somebody get there, what happened in their life? And so, yeah, like, it is, I think journalists have a responsibility to pay attention to the mood that their stories might be received in. And yeah, like, I think some more. Hard line journalists might be like, Oh, well, aren’t you just like, over engineering the news at this point, but I feel like if you’re over emphasizing like criminal elements, especially with regards to a group, you’re kind of painting in an inaccurate picture of that demographic as well.
Rhea Mann: I think there was a lot of great things in that answer to kind of talk about more positive aspects of journalism on minority groups and that kind of thing. In addition to the people not policy concept in your book, that stuck out to me was the idea of calendar journalism. And so especially since, as we’re recording this interview, it’s the Wali had just passed. And so it was something that was on my forefront while I was reading your book anyways. And so I was just kind of wondering how things like calendar journalism, so like articles, and you talk about this as well, about how these holidays are celebrated, and how journalists sometimes act as a tour guide. I believe that’s something you you say in your book, as well, in doing that and acting as a tour guide for a holiday, for people who aren’t celebrating it, and also people who are, how does, how does that kind of journalism about holidays also add to stereotyping and and even not necessarily negative. I know there’s things that are, like, positive stereotypes. So like, Asians are smart, or, like, Indians have these great big parties and, like, all these things. So like, how? How does that kind of journalism where, you know, maybe, if you’re just looking at it on the surface, it’s highlighting a holiday, but in other ways, how is it actually kind of detrimental to the community it’s reporting on.
Chris Cheung: Yeah uh, well, thank you so much for reading the book.
Rhea Mann: I really liked it honestly, like, honestly, as I’ve been going through it, I’m just, like, highlighting all these things, and you’re, it’s just great. So everyone that’s listening to spots a really great book. But go ahead,
Chris Cheung: thank you. Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting with that, you bring up that point about Diwali, because, like, I think when there is stories about, like, you know, Lunar New Year, for example, in the news, people from like, the older generation, like, like my parents, when they see something like, there’s like, Oh, this is this is so great that this is being included. But I feel like, for us who have like, grown up here, we kind of want something more. Yeah, and so you mentioned calendar journalism, in which I bring up in the book, yeah, that’s so I have a session in there that’s about these four things that start with with the letter D, of times when people of color make the news. So this was part of the section, which I called delicious. So Delicious stories usually are stories that are about culture. Food is a really big one. So calendar journalism refers to some kind of cultural holiday or some kind of heritage month where there is a lot of attention from a news outlet on a particular group, just just on that time of year. So yeah, I think it raises a lot of questions about why that coverage is in there. So for example, like, is that newsroom covering a group on the other days of the year as well, not just at this particular time? Like I sometimes when I’ve interviewed scholars who have become friends, like during Asian heritage month, they say how tired they are because everyone’s, like, all the media is descending on them and asking the same things. And I think, yeah, when there are these, like, delicious stories, it’s usually about how to consume a culture. Like, where can I get this snack? Or, like, Where can I go to check out this dance? And I think that it turns the culture into a kind of product, and it is, and it’s not not just a product, but a product that is for somebody who is from the outside of that culture to to consume it, and less so about like, what that what that holiday, or what that celebration means to somebody who is actually on the inside. And so I think even for the stories that seem like there are positive like celebrating cultural diversity, I think it can be quite othering and quite reductive in that way, if it’s just like, Oh, hey, there might be a there might be a new year that you haven’t heard of, or there might be this celebration that you haven’t heard of, treating it as if it’s something that’s new, and it requires introduction, especially for groups that have been in Canada for a really, really long time, and for holidays that have hundreds and hundreds of years of history. Like, that’s painting it in that way is just untrue. And so yeah, like, I always try to think of ways where it can be reported differently, like more from the inside out, where a group who is the one that a particular holiday like belongs to, they’d be interested in checking out the story too. And you know, for calendar journalism, like, aside from stories where, like, ethnic people are being like ethnic like, are those stories too where identity does not matter? Like, are we going to see a story? That’s about something more run of the mill, like, you know, who’s who’s voting for who, like in the news, or, you know, prom, interviewing people at prom, where you do have a diversity of folks who are in that story, but their ethnicity is not something that’s highlighted. And I think, I think it’s important to have both. And on the latter point, like, about just normalizing who is in our country,
Nathan Ko: I think that’s, yeah, like, really interesting. You’re you’re bringing up this idea of, like, othering from the inside out, like reporting, if you could, like, explore more of that. Because you also talked about how before, back in the day, like older generations would be just really happy to hear any story about their culture, because it feels like, in a way, they’re fitting into what’s already established. But I guess, like now our culture, we don’t want just people now just don’t want to fit in. We want to be also, like, extremely we want to be at the table as well, right? So if you want to explore more of this idea of othering and also, like, from the inside out reporting, that’d be really cool.
Chris Cheung: Yeah, I definitely held that view when I got started, like, I thought that anytime I could get a person of color in the news, that was, like, a huge win for me. Like, any kind of representation is good representation. But as I start to do this work more, I started to ask these questions about, like, Okay, well, what are the stories that we’re appearing in over and over again, whether it’s good or bad, do the people, do people of color, get to be the main character, or are they a sidekick in the story? And when a story is, you know, kind of writing to an audience, like a story about Diwali, like, is it being catered to somebody on the outside, or is it catered to somebody who is, who does celebrate Diwali, and would have more to say. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s a big part of what this book is about, too. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s tough, because there are great outlets out there nowadays where it’s like, you know, we’re having an Asian Canadian news outlet, and we’re going to speak to things that are important for Asian Canadians. But I think for when you’re doing mainstream journalism, it’s a little bit different, because you unfortunately, like we do have to pay attention to the white gaze, even if we’re not catering to it wholly. So I think it’s important for us to write something that multiple audiences can care about as well. I won’t name the outlet, but there was a piece that was like, it was like a dim sum 101, type piece, and it did all the things that I, I was complaining about earlier, like, like, oh, this, this dish is kind of scary, but if you try it, it, you know, you might be surprised about, like, how it tastes, or like, here’s some etiquette that you need to pay attention to. And so, yeah, it was very much on that introductory level. And I don’t think that anybody who you know goes to dim sum, like, every weekend, and it wasn’t like a novel thing to them, would care to read about that piece. But I don’t think that means, like, you know, we shouldn’t be covering these stories about culture and food, like, at all. Like, I still think there’s a way that you can cater it to somebody who is on on the inside, like, something that they might not know about either. So, you know, like, as somebody who does eat dim sum, like, I’d be curious about, you know, who’s in the kitchen, like, what time do they wake up to prep all of this? Is there some education that they need to be able to make, like, so many of these dishes, how are those ingredients sourced? And what you know when you go to a restaurant like this is usually really crowded, like, what’s it like for the manager to orchestrate a Sunday lunch where so many people are coming in? So I think, I think there are ways where you can write about culture and cater to both audiences and without doing that kind of othering, like not having those times where you’re saying, like, oh, this might be, you know, this might be an unusual dish, but, you know, please try it. So, so again, to that point of thinking about, rather than from the outside looking in, like, how can we do this story from the inside looking out?
Nathan Ko: No, that’s actually really interesting, because you give like, specific themes, for example, that you can explore a site like, outside of, let’s say, just like the other end, type of reporting. Which leads into my next question of, like, what advice would you give aspiring journalists? Maybe a listener here wants to be a journalist that to make change in the community. I know you just gave some examples, but if you dive deeper into like, what you would potentially have like to know known when you first started out, or what you would want to know now, yeah. What advice would you give journalists, but also those like consuming the media, like people like me, just kind of reading different news stories every day, and how to be critical of that?
Chris Cheung: I think that outside in, Inside Out Point is my biggest one. The I reference a story in the book about coverage of I think, I think it was coverage of Diwali, where it was in it was in a smaller town that there were international students who had like found each other and were able to celebrate it, even though there wasn’t as much access to a. Um, like a community over here, like in South Vancouver or in Surrey, where they’re able to buy everything they want. So I think if you are a journalist covering something like this, like, is this a story that we’ve heard before? Like, Diwali, 101, or, like, dim sum, 101, that is something that we’ve heard about before, but there’s a lot of stories around it, which I think, like, can take it a little bit further, like during COVID, for a lot of cultural holidays, I thought media did a really good job of showing how people can celebrate without being physically together, whether that’s online or meeting distance, like outside. And I thought that was really interesting, and something that was new to tell audiences.
Nathan Ko: I think that’s really good to highlight, like the positives and like the successes in a way that media does have. Because I think when I first explore your ideas and, like, learn about being way more critical, a lot of times, I’m like, okay, like, no one is really doing this correctly, things like that. But I think it’s really nice to put an emphasis on the fact that there are, there’s really good reporting, and there’s really good personal ways of connecting with communities through the media you consume. So I think that’s like a really good point that I really enjoy and appreciate that you bring up in this conversation.
Chris Cheung: Yeah, and you know, speaking to calendar journalism again, like do being able to chase a good story like that for like, for like, one particular day, I think that says a lot about you, know, you it would be great if you had somebody in the newsroom already who was tapped into those groups, who would just know where to go. Because if you don’t have somebody like that, then everybody’s again, like scrambling on that particular day to chase that cultural story, and it would usually be done in like, a very quick and very like hit and run type manner. But again, like if you if you invest in your newsroom, and have your newsroom be a reflection of society, then when there are opportunities for these stories that come up, it’s a lot more organic to go after them,
Rhea Mann: Yeah, and to kind of build off of the idea of, like, starting into journalism, or how, like, maybe students or younger people are consuming journalism, I personally, a lot of the way that I receive my news, and I know I’m not alone in this, is through social media and despite kudos Bill C 18, which, for those of you that don’t, that don’t know, is limits Canadian news outlets on meta social media, I still find my news online, and that is primarily through people that are kind of on the ground or like reporting, kind of self reporting, what’s happening within their community or in their own lives. So kind of almost similar work to what you do, Chris, where, like slice of life journalism, but almost autobiographical, or maybe about their neighbor and that kind of thing. And so I was just wondering, there isn’t too much emphasis on social media in your book, which I understand, it’s mainly interrogating mainstream news sources and journalism practices. But just from my own curiosity, I was wondering, how you think this kind of social media content creation, news like, kind of like pseudo journalists, people that are coming up, are they, in many ways, enforcing the white gaze. Do you think, or is kind of the new ways of sharing news, defying it? That’s kind of a question.
Chris Cheung: So I don’t know how many like millennial listeners will be out there, but but very early on, like when, when things like YouTube and Instagram, like, were created. There was a lot of independent creators in, like, the entertainment space. So there were people like, you know, like Wong Fu or like Linda D, who’s, like, still active. They, they did a lot of comedy, but it was about Asian identity, like, you know, East Asian identity. And so, yeah, I everybody I know who grew up seeing them appear online, they were like, it was very refreshing. And it was like, it felt very affirming to see people talk about stuff like, you know, their videos would would talk about things Asian parents do, or like how they’re treated like an immigrant household, things like that. And I it was, it was refreshing, but it also talked about race in the way that I mentioned earlier, about like races being like destiny, like if you if you like things from your own culture, then you’re so Asian, you know, like, like comments like that. And so I think with the social media space, because it is because of the format, like it is a lot more colloquial, it is a lot shorter. There isn’t as much time to talk about nuance. And it is from people who are, like, independent creators who who might not have gone to. An ACAM course and talks about, talked about race in a more in depth way. Yeah, there’s like, there’s like, there was this idea that, like, the more Asian you were, the more in touch with your culture you were, the less Canadian or the less American you are. So I yeah, I think just as a as an effect of that format, like, it’s a shorter format. There’s shorter opportunities for that kind of discussion. But at the same time, like, now, when you talk about people who use social media for news, I do see that there’s, there’s a lot of really great accounts that do analysis of the news that try to, like, educate people on certain issues. So like, representation, representation project, like, that’s a really big one. The on Canada project is really good and, yeah, like, there’s a lot of commentary. It is very it’s a bit more activisty. Like, there’s some some kind of call to action usually in their post. But I really like that they are trying to add a little bit more to what they see in the news. And I think whether we’re talking about that entertainment space or like this newer space of people doing this kind of analysis, you know, they’re filling some kind of gap that they’re not seeing in mainstream media, whether that’s entertainment or news. So I really love that, and I really love that people are using this medium to do something that is more grassroots. The fact that this wasn’t really around 10 years ago, and that there are these conversations now. Like I’m very I’m very heartened by that awesome
Rhea Mann: I really appreciate that answer, and it kind of smoothly segues into our next segment. And so just like you were mentioning, it’s there’s a lot more kind of representation and people that are filling the gap and to acknowledge more of that happening in media and pop culture. Nathan and I have our segment, which is the watch list, where each episode, we kind of talk about the movies or shows we’re watching or the news stories we’re watching within Asian Canadian pop culture, or just kind of Canadian news and pop culture at large, mainly just because me and Nathan like movies and we like talking about things like this, so it’s kind of our excuse to talk about what we’re passionate about. Um, and so I can start off with with my watch list again, since it is midterm season, I haven’t really been watching that many things, but I am watching the story of season two of late bloomers, which is a Canadian, Punjabi Canadian TV show ran by just meet Raina, who went previously as just rain on YouTube, so similar to Wu Fong and Linda D who you mentioned. Just rain was a South Asian YouTuber who really represented a lot of life and like experiences for South Asians in Canada and his his TV show, Late Bloomers is is like semi autobiographical falls, a young South Asian YouTuber balancing life and family in this career and entertainment he wants to pursue. And so season one came out in January of this year, and they, they just started season two. So so I’m excited. I really enjoyed season one. It’s a crave original, so I hope it comes out like sometime, by the end of next year, but, but TV production can be slow, but, um, but, yeah, that’s kind of, that’s kind of what I’ve been watching. I’ve been keeping up with the behind the scenes photos and, um, yeah.
Chris Cheung: I love that. There are these people who are making that jump from YouTube to, I guess, like, you know, something that’s more corporate or corporate, like realizing that they have a gap, and then this is where they they pluck people into help them create something new.
Rhea Mann: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he and the show, the first season of late bloomers, featured the first scene in Canadian television history to show a man tying his bug. So that was pretty groundbreaking. And honestly, when I found out that fact, that was kind of crazy to me, because that’s such a normal and not even just for me, it’s a normal thing. There’s there’s men wearing turbans and bugs all over Vancouver and Canada. But it was only last year that the first TV scene showed that. So it definitely is filling the gap and and doing all the things that we like representation in media to be doing.
Chris Cheung: That it takes place, um, just outside of a like, just outside of Toronto, right? Like, in one of the birds there,
Rhea Mann: yeah, yeah. It’s like, yeah, GTA area.
Chris Cheung: I really love that, because there are times when I watch, like Martin Scorsese films, for example, where it does talk about, like a different white diaspora experience, like Italian American. And it does have those institutions that people who grew up in Canada, who are from a. A minority community might be familiar with, like, like, going to church or going to the Gurdwara, but, yeah, we see a lot of the Italian Catholic American experience, but we don’t see as much of the racialized ones. So I’m always, like, really excited when I when, you know that family life, but in a Canadian context, that religious life, or the home, like, like, all of that is, you know, there are stories told about those experiences.
Rhea Mann: Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty good. So if you guys haven’t seen season one, it’s on crave now you can check it out. Um, but, yeah, what are, what are you guys watching?
Nathan Ko: Chris why don’t you go ahead.
Chris Cheung: Have you both checked out culinary class wars on Netflix, or, like, seen it floating?
Rhea Mann: No, I think I’ve maybe heard of it like it does, sound familiar, but I have, I have not seen it. So you can give us the full, full synopsis.
Chris Cheung: Okay, so it’s, um, it’s a Korean show, and it’s a, it’s a cooking competition show. It’s, it’s, it’s, like, the wildest one like I’ve ever seen. So it has, it has 100 people competing against each other. And again, the class war is part of the title it, like, refers to the fact that they have, they have, like, 80 up and coming chefs, and then they usually are in these battles against chefs with Michelin stars. So like, another 20, like, really world renowned chefs, yeah. So there’s things like, you know, there might be a secret ingredient for one challenge, or, like, a speed challenge. There’s a really memorable one in there where there was, like, a tofu challenge, and they had to, like, every 30 minutes, they had to do a new tofu dish. And I think they went to like, five or six rounds. But what was interesting about the show, so, it’s a Korean show, but then they had, they had this guy in there who’s, his name is Edward Lee, and he’s this celebrity chef from the US with Michelin stars. Like, he was a champion of a couple of American food shows already, but he was very much like, this is like an American born Korean guy, and I was and he speaks English throughout the show while, while nobody else does, and I was really curious, as I was watching it, how he would be received by everybody else. And there were other young people too. So this guy is, I don’t know how old he is. He’s like middle aged, but there’s other people in the show who are, like younger and there are people who’ve worked in in the US, even though they were, like, born in Korea, and those people were a lot more bicultural and a lot more mobile. But for him, like he, he talks a lot about being a lot more Americanized. And so that was a really surprising and, like, touching part of the show about how, like, you know, even though there’s like these 100 characters in there, like, I really resonated with him going over to Korea to participate in this feeling like somebody who’s very, very like renowned and prominent and very talented being out of his element, but doing it because He wanted to reconnect with his culture and that. Yeah, you have, you have to watch the show to see how well he does. But it’s, it was a very nice story lines throughout the competition.
Rhea Mann: I don’t typically watch a lot of cooking shows, but I might, I might just have to check this one out.
Nathan, what are you watching?
Nathan Ko: Yeah, I guess recently I finished Shogun, oh yeah, series on losing class. But that was, I’m kind of late to the party, but it was, like such a really good shows in my eyes. And that, like, again, it features, like, a whole Japanese cast, and it’s actually filmed in Vancouver, for the most part. That’s like, a really interesting connection. But, yeah, I’ve been watching a lot of like, interviews after the season ended, about from like the cast, like the crew, things like that. And it’s interesting to me how, from what I can I don’t know exactly if it’s like totally like all the show creators are all white, but it looks to me that they’re all predominantly white, which is really interesting to me, producing a show that is, quote, unquote, really authentic. And I’m not like, bashing or anything, but it’s just interesting, like, like balance, when it’s, like, touted as, like a really authentic showcase of, like, Japanese culture, ancient culture back in the day. Yeah, I don’t know that’s just like one thing that stood out to me, but nonetheless, it’s, like, a really great show that I really like, yeah, that’s what’s like. That’s something that I’ve been kind of watching and kind of following, but, yeah, like, I have no, like, finished thought on that, but it’s just an interesting observation,
Chris Cheung: yeah, yeah. I saw it too. It’s interesting when you have a, have a show or some kind of content that’s like, it’s called, like, the best that there is. But there are still shortfalls with that, like, like, people felt that way about like, Crazy Rich Asians, like, for example,
Nathan Ko: Yeah, that’s actually really interesting, because in another class I also, I guess that’s the other movie I watched recently, too, Crazy Rich Asians, but the whole class. US was just about critiquing, because Rich Asians like the downfalls of how it doesn’t actually represent Asians correctly. But so I think that’s a really interesting thing that kind of relates to our whole conversation. Like it’s, although these are really great representation stories, like, you’re also really important to have a critical eye.
Chris Cheung: Yeah, and about, like, how, whether it’s for news or for like, entertainment, like, where’s the bar? Like, is the bar really that low.
Rhea Mann: To put a bow on that, I guess you could say it’s about an analyzing the white gaze. Yeah, I think, I think what you brought up is really interesting, Nathan, because I know Anna saw why? I don’t know if I said the right and so why she she won an Emmy for her, her role in Shogun. And I noticed that too. I haven’t seen the show, but I keep up with all the award shows, and I noticed that when the show was winning awards, there was a lot of white men that were going on too to accept the show awards for the show. So it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting to think about how these and even like similar to Crazy Rich Asians. I know, for a lot of East Asian roles, there’s not much care to accurately casting. If it’s a movie about Chinese people, not every actor may be Chinese. So it’s like, that’s another thing that falls into to these, these media that we consume.
Chris Cheung: Yeah, Shogun, the main actor, the Japanese character. He’s been in a lot of stuff, like Last Samurai and John Wick, and I know he was like a producer on the show. So they tried to make it, like, more authentic. One really funny thing was that they had the the there’s like Portuguese characters in the show, but they speak English. So people were making fun of how, like, this is poor Portuguese representation, because the Japanese people can speak Japanese.
Rhea Mann: That’s always weird, too. Because how authentic is it if we’re not even speaking the language and we should be?
Nathan Ko: Yeah, I guess it just been a whole show of just subtitles then, so, yeah, but I mean, yeah, no. Thanks for that. Those are really great, like, sampling of different things that we’re all consuming in our lives today. Yeah, to wrap up everything, just thank you, Chris for the really great conversation about Yeah, just being way more critical about how we consume media, but also how we kind of produce it as well. If we want to become journalists or just reading everything that we see every day, it’s also important to have that critical eye and yeah, like your your book dives into a lot more detail about these different topics that we bring up. So for all the listeners out there, please check out Chris’s book under the white gaze. Chris, where, where is it available?
Chris Cheung: Um, you can get it anywhere, but you like, I would recommend that you try to find out your indie bookstore, and if they don’t have it, um, you can ask them to buy it.
Nathan Ko: Yeah, that’s good to always support local bookstores and businesses. So yeah, with that, thank you so much. Again. We really had a great time talking to you about different topics that you’re really passionate about. And yeah, hope to talk soon and talk soon.
So thank you so much for listening. We really had a good time talking to Chris, and it was really insightful for us. And we would just like to thank Chris again for the really good conversation, and also just spending time with us to talk about his new book.
Rhea Mann: Yeah, and you can pick up Chris’s book under the white gaze, solving the problem of race and representation in Canadian journalism at local bookstores, as well as on campus at the UBC bookstore, as it is an official UBC publication under purge books
Nathan Ko: and for all other ACAM related news and updates, please go ahead and follow us on Instagram at UBC, ACAM, bye, see you.